编者按：由华西边疆研究所的安高乐主持，全球治理与区域国别研究院孙红林副教授、助理研究员张秋荣参与讨论。这次讨论涉及中老铁路和拟建中的中尼铁路的比较级前者对后者经验的借鉴，南亚和东南亚的地缘政治和地缘经济等。内容丰富，有参考价值，特地推出，以飧读者。

主持人：最近，尼泊尔朋友对中尼铁路的兴趣越来越浓，但也有不少朋友担心中尼铁路项目一时半会启动不了，怕要等上十几二十年，甚至更久。上周尼泊尔的记者朋友来成都跟我们聊，他们也很关心这个项目的进展。实际上，中老铁路可以给中尼铁路提供很多成功经验。孙红林老师最近刚从老挝考察中老铁路回来，一定有很多收获。去年年底孙老师参与我们微信公众号的对话，谈了很多有价值的观点，今天想请您再谈一谈，特别是这次有什么新的体会？

Host: Mr Sun, welcome to the discussion. Recently, Nepalese friends have become more and more interested in the China-Nepal Railway, but many friends worry that the China-Nepal Railway project will not start for a while, and they are afraid that it will take ten to twenty years, or even longer. Last week, one journalists from Nepal came to Chengdu to chat with us. They are also very concerned about the progress of this project. In fact, the China-Laos Railway can provide a lot of successful experience for the China-Nepal Railway. Mr. Sun Honglin just went to Laos for field research of the China-Laos Railway recently, and he must have gained a lot. At the end of last year, Mr. Sun participated in the dialogue on our WeChat official account and talked about many valuable points of view. Today I would like to ask Mr. Sun to talk about it again, especially what new experience did you have this time?

孙红林：谢谢安老师，这一次到老挝，确实有很多收获，可以在这里和大家分享一下。跨境铁路的修建，确实是一个巨大的系统工程。在这一个系统工程里面，不仅包括工程技术方面的问题，也包括深层次的人文社科方面的问题。在这个系统工程里面，同时也有跨国学者能不能进行交流的问题，相关的交流意见会不会受到重视的问题。实际上，2017年我就在《学习时报》上呼吁过，我说，今天的中国高铁，在给国人出行方式和时空观念带来较大便利的同时，如何释放巨大的创新能力，在“一带一路”倡议实施的过程中，为人类文明增加更多的中国贡献，这不仅是中国高铁持续进行科学创新的题中之义，更是人文社会科学全面创新研究的一大主题。

Sun Honglin: Thank you, Mr. An, I have gained a lot in Laos this time, and I can share it with you here. The construction of cross-border railways is indeed a huge systematic project. In this system engineering, it includes not only engineering and technical issues, but also deep-seated issues in humanities and social sciences. In this system project, there are also issues such as whether transnational scholars can communicate, and whether related exchanges of opinions will be taken seriously. In fact, in 2017, I called on the "Study Times". I said that today's Chinese high-speed rail, while bringing greater convenience to Chinese people's travel mode and space-time concept, how to release huge innovation capabilities, In the process of implementing the "Belt and Road", adding more Chinese contributions to human civilization is not only the meaning of China's high-speed rail's continuous scientific innovation, but also a major theme of comprehensive innovation research in humanities and social sciences.

张秋容：孙老师一直在这个领域当中有耕耘，对跨国铁路的修建既有理论的认识，又有实践的参与，这种理论和实践的结合不容易吧？

Zhang Qiurong: Mr. Sun has been working in this field. He has both a theoretical understanding and practical participation in the construction of cross-border railways. Isn’t it not easy to combine theory and practice?

孙红林：谢谢张老师。说真的，这种研究确实非常不容易，它需要两国高校和铁路单位的支持，还需要自掏腰包吃很多苦，哈哈。最近中老铁路变得很火，我很高兴地看到，有很多师友也开始重视实践调查了，包括中铁二局等单位的朋友也感觉到，对国际工程开展田野调查很有必要。我蛮希望中尼铁路研究能够得到中尼双方更多的支持。

Sun Honglin: Thank you Dr. Zhang. To be honest, this kind of research is really not easy. It needs the support of universities and railway units in the two countries, and it also needs to pay for it out of pocket and go through a lot of hardships. Recently, the Laos-China Railway has become very popular. I am very happy to see that many teachers and friends have begun to pay attention to practical investigations, including friends from China Railway Second Bureau and other units. They also feel that it is necessary to carry out field investigations on international projects. I quite hope that China-Nepal Railway research can get more support from both sides.

主持人：嗯，跨境铁路涉及的知识面太宽了，许多问题如果不到现场是真的没法想象。张秋容老师除了关心南亚国家对外关系、海洋安全问题之外，对国际大通道也很感兴趣，您觉得中尼铁路相关的地缘政治经济，在国际大通道中是怎样的一个存在？

Host: Well, the knowledge involved in cross-border railways is too wide, and many problems cannot be imagined without being on site. In addition to caring about the foreign relations and maritime security issues of South Asian countries, Dr. Zhang Qiurong is also very interested in the international channel. What do you think of the geopolitical economy related to the China-Nepal Railway in the international channel?

张秋容：哈哈，谢谢安老师的提问。实际上，包括中尼铁路在内的国际通道问题，都已经不仅仅是国际关系或者地缘政治专业所涵盖的了，我只能谈一点粗浅的看法。中尼铁路横穿喜马拉雅山脉，一旦通车，不仅能促进中尼沿线两国人民经贸发展和民心相通，还将有助于尼泊尔摆脱对印度的交通运输通道和经济发展依赖。更为重要的是，中尼铁路的通车将使西藏由铁路未稍成为中尼交通枢纽，对维护中印边境安宁有一定促进作用。

Zhang Qiurong: Haha, thank Mr. An for your question. In fact, the issue of international passages, including the China-Nepal Railway, is no longer covered by international relations or geopolitics. I can only talk about a superficial view. The China-Nepal railway crosses the Himalayas. Once opened to traffic, it will not only promote the economic and trade development and people-to-people contact between the two countries along the route, but also help Nepal(XiZang) get rid of its dependence on India's transportation channels and economic development. More importantly, the opening of the China-Nepal railway will turn Tibet into a transportation hub between China and Nepal, which will play a certain role in maintaining the tranquility of the Sino-Indian border.

孙红林：张老师说得没错，国际跨境通道建设涉及方方面面。从这一点来看，中尼铁路与中老铁路有相似的地方，但也有不同之处。就中尼铁路而言，外部干扰就太大了，例如美国MCC，可能会让尼泊尔难以维持一个稳定的营商环境，没有持续稳定的社会，中尼铁路不可能上马。

Sun Honglin: Mr. Zhang is right. The construction of international cross-border channels involves all aspects. From this point of view, the China-Nepal Railway and the China-Laos Railway have similarities, but also differences. For China-Nepal Railway, external interference is too great. For example, the MCC of the United States may make it difficult for Nepal to maintain a stable business environment. Without a sustainable and stable society, the China-Nepal Railway will never be built.

张秋容：孙老师提到的MCC，我注意到7月5号MCC网站发布一则消息，艾丽丝·P·艾尔布利特（Alice P Albright）MCC的首席执行官，她计划下个月访问尼泊尔，以正式启动MCC实施，该契约涵盖了输电线路的建设和高速公路等项目。我认为对中尼铁路带来相当深远的影响。众所周知，尼泊尔一直奉行平衡外交。在中国的“一带一路”倡议和美国的MCC之间，尼泊尔一直想两边讨好，两边得利。但是，面对中美在尼泊尔的基础设施建设方面的竞争时，尼泊尔内心的天平更容易倒向美国。最近尼泊尔拒绝承认中尼铁路是“一带一路”倡议的有机组成部分就是最好的例证。这就更需要对中尼铁路开展更多的前期研究了。

Zhang Qiurong: The MCC mentioned by Mr. Sun, I noticed a message posted on the MCC website on July 5th, Alice P Albright, the CEO of MCC, plans to visit Nepal next month , to formally launch the implementation of the MCC, which covers projects such as the construction of transmission lines and highways. I think it will have a profound impact on the China-Nepal Railway. As we all know, Nepal has always pursued balanced diplomacy. Between China's "One Belt, One Road" initiative and the US's MCC, Nepal has always wanted to please and benefit from both sides. However, when faced with the competition between China and the United States in the construction of Nepal's infrastructure, Nepal's inner balance is more likely to tilt towards the United States. The recent refusal by Nepal to recognize the China-Nepal Railway as an integral part of the Belt and Road Initiative is the best example. This requires more preliminary research on the China-Nepal Railway.

主持人：是啊，很多因素错综复杂。我们做南亚研究的一些学者，在理论上应该说还是比较扎实的，但是孙老师已经完成了从理论到实践的过程，对跨境铁路有了一些心得体会，那么就请和大家分享一下你的经验。

Host: Yes, many factors are complicated. Some of our scholars who focus on South Asian studies have good master of theory, but Mr. Sun has completed the process from theory to practice, and has some experience with cross-border railways, so please share your experience with everyone experience.

孙红林：是这样的，其实我关注国际铁路项目七八年了，但直到2018年的时候，我在西南交大和老中铁路有限公司的支持下，才有机会用学术研究的方式服务中老铁路项目。主要还是民族志的方法，深入铁路工地和沿线地区开展参与观察的田野工作。至今我共进行了6次田野调查，每一次看到中老铁路的新发展，我和我的老挝朋友都会为此多喝一杯。

Sun Honglin: That’s right. In fact, I have been paying attention to international railway projects about 8 years, but it was not until 2018, with the support of Southwest Jiaotong University and Laos-China Railway Co., Ltd., that I had the opportunity to serve the China-Laos Railway through academic research. projects. The main method is ethnography, in-depth fieldwork of participatory observation in railway construction sites and areas along the line. So far, I have conducted 6 field investigations. Every time I see a new development of the China-Laos Railway, My Lao friends and I would all toast to this!

张秋容：听孙老师这么一说，我真想和尼泊尔朋友一起，沿着中尼铁路走走看看。感觉对中尼铁路的认识，缺少来自现场的一手资料的话，是很难真正研究好跨境项目的。

Zhang Qiurong: Hearing what Mr. Sun said, I really want to walk along the China-Nepal Railway with my Nepalese friends. I feel that without the first-handed information from the site, it is difficult to really study the cross-border project well.

孙红林：虽然我没有对中尼铁路开展实地调查，但感觉中老铁路的成功建设，还是值得中尼铁路学习的。最重要的有两点：一方面，国家政局越稳定，大型工程建筑的进展就越快，国际关系越稳定，大型跨国铁路工程越能够顺利推进，越能够让社会民生早受益、多受益；另一个非常重要的经验是：跨国铁路、海外铁路项目，除了需要工程技术的专家之外，还应该吸纳人文社科方面的专家参与，这可以在成本协调、企业社会责任发挥、铁路形象塑造、沿线开发、文化交流和文明互鉴等方面发挥非常积极的作用。中老铁路现在给老挝带来实实在在的利益，连泰国、柬埔寨、越南等周边国家也羡慕不已，接下来中老两国人文社科界共同参与，未来更加可期。

Sun Honglin: Although I have not conducted field investigations on the China-Nepal Railway, I feel that the successful construction of the China-Laos Railway is worth learning from the China-Nepal Railway. There are two most important points: on the one hand, the more stable the country's political situation, the faster the progress of large-scale construction projects, the more stable international relations are, the smoother the progress of large-scale transnational railway projects, and the earlier and more benefits can be brought to society and people's livelihood; A very important experience is: in addition to engineering experts, experts in humanities and social sciences should also be involved in transnational railway and overseas railway projects, which can be used in cost coordination, corporate social responsibility, railway image building, It plays a very active role in development, cultural exchanges and mutual learning among civilizations. The China-Laos Railway has now brought tangible benefits to Laos, and even neighboring countries such as Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam are envious. Next, the humanities and social sciences of China and Laos will jointly participate, and the future will be even more promising.

张秋容：中老铁路现在太火了！开通后，好多国人都乘坐中老铁路去老挝旅游哦，希望中尼铁路也能够顺利推进、早日通车。

Zhang Qiurong: The China-Laos Railway is so popular now! After the opening, people from many countries have taken the China-Laos Railway to travel to Laos. I hope that the China-Nepal Railway will also be able to advance smoothly and open to traffic as soon as possible.

主持人：哈哈，是的，当然国情不同，也需要我们和尼泊尔方的同事加强联系，共同推进研究。好了，这期节目就到这里，谢谢孙老师和张老师的分享。

Host: Haha, yes, of course the national conditions are different, and we also need to strengthen contact with our colleagues in Nepal to jointly promote research. Well, this episode ends here, thank you Mr. Sun and Mr. Zhang for sharing.

张、孙：好的，谢谢。